HOUSE OF DIGGS with MARION ORR

ERRICK L. GREENE: Hello everyone. This is Dr. Errick Greene, Superintendent of Schools in Jackson, Mississippi, and you are at the Point of Learning with my friend, Dr. Peter Horn. Mississippi was the ancestral home of Charles Coles Diggs, Jr., who chose in 1955, his first year in the U.S. Congress, to attend the trial of the murderers of Emmett Till. Diggs was the only federal official to do so. For twenty-five years, Congressman Diggs represented the people of Detroit, whose students, coincidentally, I served earlier in my career. So I’m especially pleased to introduce Pete’s conversation with Dr. Marion Orr, who wrote the definitive biography of Congressman Diggs. Enjoy the show!

[01:08]

PETER HORN [voiceover]: On today’s show, political scientist Marion Orr discussing the impact of Congressman Charles Coles Diggs, Jr.

MARION ORR: The American Anti-Apartheid Movement literally started in Congressman Diggs’ congressional office. He was talking about Apartheid in the ‘50s and ‘60s, when many Americans had no idea what Apartheid was.

[VO]: In 1955, just nine months into his first term, Congressman Diggs played a pivotal role as the only federal observer at the trial of Emmett Till's murderers.

ORR: What we now know is that he had an impact on some of the witnesses, especially the Black witnesses, many of whom were afraid to come forward and testify against these two white men.

[VO]: And yes, I do ask Dr. Orr to speculate about what this powerful legislator would be doing if he were serving in Congress today.

ORR: He would be very, very disappointed about how the Republican majority has really thrown out of whack, if you will, the separation of powers by not holding the administration accountable. And he would be pushing his Democratic colleagues to be doing something. And I think what he’d be pushing for would be probably national and regional hearings around these various issues that all of us are talking about these days.

[VO]: If you're as hungry as I am to be reminded about the role Congress is supposed to play, do I have an episode for you! Buckle up!

[03:16]

[VO]: Dr. Marion Orr is a political scientist and the inaugural Frederick Lippitt Professor of Public Policy at Brown University. An award-winning author, his publications include House of Diggs: The Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman. Charles C. Diggs Jr., which we discuss today. He also wrote Black Social Capital: The Politics of School Reform in Baltimore; and The Color of School Reform: Race, Politics, and the Challenge of Urban Education. Dr. Orr was awarded the Biographers International Organization’s Francis “Frank” Rollin Fellowship for his work on Congressman Diggs. Orr’s book recounts Diggs’ early life as a son of the Great Migration, confronting racism as a young officer in the U.S. military, and his years as a successful funeral home director—House of Diggs was actually the name of the Detroit funeral home founded by his father. The book details his election as the first Black Congressman to serve a majority-white district; his role at the trial of Emmett Till’s murderers; his friendship with Dr. King; his significant impact on federal civil rights policy, including desegregating commercial airlines and military bases; his role as founder of the Congressional Black Caucus; his fight against Apartheid in South Africa; and his many other contributions as a public servant. If you, like me, knew nothing or next to nothing about Congressman Charles Coles Diggs, Jr. before encountering Dr. Orr’s work, that may be partially because of the scandal that ended Diggs’ political career, which involved dogged targeting by another Congressman you’ve definitely heard of. We get into that too. There’s one detail of Professor Orr’s own biography that I want to highlight because it caught my eye as a former high school teacher who loved to learn what fired my own students up. Dr. Orr was in high school in 1978, when ABC hired Max Robinson as the first Black journalist to co-anchor a national newscast, World News Tonight. Years after young Marion would race home from the basketball court in time to watch Max Robinson deliver the news, he remains convinced that watching Robinson each night piqued his early interest in government and politics. For now, just remember that name, Max Robinson, and let’s get into my conversation with Marion Orr, recorded January 26, 2026 via video call. Early on I asked Professor Orr about his research process, which not only involved conducting dozens of personal interviews, but also combing through some 750 boxes of the late Congressman’s papers housed at the Howard University library, as well as the presidential libraries of the six presidents spanned by Diggs’ quarter-century tenure in Congress. I asked Orr how he made decisions about what was important, given the voluminous material.

[06:28]

ORR: Well, I specialize in American government. So I've studied American politics as an undergrad student and for my Master's degree and my Ph.D. I teach courses in American politics, so I specialize in American government. So I had a sense of what to look for, what to flag that I thought might be significant and important. So I believe, Peter, my training as a political scientist really helped me sort of think about what is it that a Congressperson is doing and I'm able to then dig deeply into Congressman Diggs’ activities over the 25-year period. So I'm not a journalist; I'm not a historian. Many biographies are written by journalists and historians. So I bring a political-science lens, which I think helped me sort of give a focus to the life and career of Congressman Diggs, hence in sorting through all the documents that you correctly indicated that I went through, I had a sense of how to build the story, understanding again, the role of the legislature, the Congress, and the role of a Congress member. So for example, Peter, when I went into the Diggs papers and noticed the numerous folders on airline discrimination, there I really quickly picked up, "Oh, Congressman Diggs is carrying out his oversight authority," because that's a role of a congressman: to oversee the executive branch, to see if the executive branch is carrying out the laws as intended by the Congress. So right there, I had a sense that there has to be a story here about Congressman Diggs' effort in overseeing the Federal Aviation Administration and what they were doing as relates to Blacks and commercial air travel. So when I saw those documents on the airlines, I immediately thought, “Aha, this is what a congressman does. He’s supposed to provide oversight.”

PETER HORN: This is an audio podcast, so you can see me smiling because I think we both share the sense—I'm not going to speak for you, but it would be nice to have the sense that Congress today would exert the oversight power that it has. And this is part of what was very exciting to read: how he pulled the levers that were available to him using his, what you term as “the politics of strategic moderation” that involved great persistence, dogged persistence. This is not one letter that he wrote to change things. This is dozens and dozens of letters and meetings and so forth and leaning where he could. But just to give a quick example of the airlines that you've mentioned—that you record, you note that in 1955, which was the year that Diggs came to office, there were nearly 6,000—5919 stewards and stewardesses employed commercially on scheduled airlines in the U.S., and none of them was Black. And so it took some years, but I think it was maybe 1960 that you record one of the first African American female flight attendants to be hired, but that was a long-term campaign of subtle and relentless pressure, as you put it.

ORR: Yes, yes.

HORN: I'd like to go to 1955, because this is the year that Diggs comes to office. It was that summer that Emmett Till was lynched. It was not until December of that year that Dr. King would emerge really on the national stage in conjunction with leading the Montgomery bus boycott after Rosa Parks is arrested on December 1st. So this is a pivotal year in a lot of respects. I was struck to learn that Congressman Diggs, in the summer of 1955, to go back to the trial of Emmet Till's murderers, because his family—of course Diggs himself represented Detroit, I think mostly, in Michigan. He's coming from Michigan, but he had his family members, he had a legacy in Mississippi, so I think he felt attached to it, but of course this was a horrific crime. He was moved to go there, be present at the trial, the only federal figure at the Emmett Till trial. I wonder if you could just say a little bit about the impact of his being there.

[11:44]

ORR: Diggs arrived in Washington in January of 1955, and he is, I should add, one of only three Black members of Congress, Adam Clayton Powell in Harlem, and there was William “Bill” Dawson, the Black Congressman from Chicago, who was elected in 1942. When Diggs arrived in Congress, there was really discussion about what kind of "Negro Congressman" Diggs would be. And writers early on began to compare him with Adam Clayton Powell and Dawson, the other two Black members. Diggs, by going down to Mississippi in the summer of 1955, made it very clear to America just what kind of “Negro Congressman” he would be. And what Diggs did was he went down to Mississippi during the trial of the two white men who were accused of killing Emmett Till, who for your listeners, was a 14-year-old Black boy from Chicago who went down to Mississippi to visit his relatives there and he was lynched, murdered. And so two men were arrested, two white men. They were on trial down there in Money, Mississippi, in the Delta of Mississippi. Diggs' father came from Mississippi, from the Delta. So Diggs had some linkages to Mississippi, ancestral linkages. Like many Black Americans, Diggs was moved by the photograph of the mutilated body of Emmett Till, the photograph that appeared in many of the Black newspapers around the country and in Jet magazine. Diggs was moved by it. He is quoted as saying he was moved by it. And Diggs decided that he would go down to Mississippi and observe the trial of those two white men. And he played a significant role while there. As you indicated, he was the only federal official at the trial. But what we now know is that he had an impact on some of the witnesses, especially the Black witnesses, many of whom were afraid, Peter, to come forward and testify against these two white men because in 1955, for any Black person to accuse a white man of murder—or any other crime for that matter—could lead to their own death or physical injury. So these witnesses were afraid. They came forward and they testified, and several of them who testified told reporters and relatives after the trial that they felt and received courage by looking out and seeing Congressman Diggs, a Black man in the courtroom, so that Diggs’ presence gave these witnesses the courage they needed to come forth and to point an accusing finger at these two white men. So he had an impact on the witnesses and the fact that he was there as a powerful Black congressman encouraged these people to come forward and to testify. The other thing is that by going down to Mississippi, Diggs brought additional media attention to the trial. He was a new Congress member; he was only the third Black Congress member. So his presence there, I believe, drew additional media attention to the trial, and importantly, the challenges that Blacks in Mississippi and around the South were facing as related to voting rights and civil rights. And then the third thing I would say is that Diggs was sending a signal by going to Mississippi and observing the trial. He was sending a signal of what kind of Congress member he planned to be. And Diggs was saying that he planned to be a Congress member for all of Black America. So he, early on, Peter, would go down South to many of the civil rights hot spots in the ‘50s and ‘60s representing, if you will, Black Americans. He would go down to Montgomery, Alabama for the bus boycott that Dr. King and Rosa Parks led. And moreover, he raised $10,000 and gave it to Dr. King to support the bus boycott. And that was the beginning of a friendship and partnership between Dr. King and Charles Diggs that I write about in the book. So 1955 was a significant and important period for Black Americans and Black politics and the death and the murder of Emmett Till and the unjust verdict of the jury really galvanized Black America for civil rights. And Diggs was right in the midst of all of that.

[17:47]

HORN: I wanted to circle back to one point because you mention, perhaps by name—but Willie Reed was the 18-year-old witness who specifically in the book you mention that it was because they had met the night before. And so Reed looked at him during the trial. But then later I was interested because I had just heard and read about Willie Reed in another book because I knew that he had been so disturbed by the repercussions of what he had done that he relocated to Chicago and actually changed his name, is my understanding. You don't get into that part, but you do note that it was Congressman Diggs who helped him relocate to Chicago, which kept him safe. So he did this thing, he gave him the support to do it, but then he wasn't just leaving him high and dry. He helped him to relocate to Chicago where he would be safer.

ORR: Oh, that's right.

HORN: That's just kind of a remarkable detail. Again, this is a podcast, you wrote a whole book, but there are just fascinating parts where even if you feel like, Oh, I know a little bit of part of this story—the ways that some of these pieces come together are remarkable. Another thing I just wanted to highlight about the King-Diggs relationship that was illuminating for me because it pointed to the strengths that each man brought to the work was that Dr. King gave Diggs some credit for tactical and strategic wisdom after this effort of their 1957 Crusade for Citizenship, this voter registration rally, it fell off because it was off to a good start, but then the management, the organization fell through. And Diggs had the comment to say, “Rallies and speeches are fine for inspirational purposes, but a successful registration campaign demands skillful follow-up in the field” [House of Diggs, p. 113], for which King praised him. So [Diggs] had this understanding about how to organize, and this is one of the things that we always associate with King's legacy is how effective he was at helping people to organize. Well, there was a lot of help in that, and Diggs was one of those people who provided advice, very illuminating to read.

ORR: Yes, yes, yes.

[19:59]

HORN: And so I wanted to talk about another coincidence in time, because it seemed to me that Emmett Till's lynching in the trial associated with it was one thing that I think really crystallized for people the kind of Congressman Diggs was, literally providing oversight there in the courtroom and then support to the community—I think it's safe to say most of whom had not thought about having a Black Congressman before and now they were able to see one in the flesh, because the other two that you mentioned are of course also Northern, very associated with Chicago and New York. So to have somebody come and visit Mississippi, that was really something. But then a couple of years later, the historical fact of his being invited as part of the Congressional Delegation to witness the liberation, the establishment of Ghana as the first African nation. So he was part of this Congressional Delegation in 1957 that goes, this is the first sub-Saharan African nation to break free of colonial rule. And he was actually part of the group there in the last parliamentary session that was under British control under March 5th. And then at midnight, he is there with Adam Clayton Powell and some other folks—I think Dr. King was there—to see the Union Jack go down and the flag of Ghana come up. And he has a sense very early on about the symbolic power of Africa's liberation, the African liberation struggle and the relationship between that and the struggle for civil rights. And it's just, again, you know all this. It's fascinating to look back at this period and recognize, isn't this something because this is several years before the Civil Rights Act that meant something [Note: there had been a much more tepid Civil Rights Act passed in 1957] and the Voting Rights Act in ‘64 and ‘65, and yet he is recognizing that Africa can be very significant even though the work is far from finished in the United States, that the two continents can—there's some resonance between them that can be drawn upon, and he becomes very involved with Africa. So I wonder if you'd say a little bit about that trajectory.

[22:23]

ORR: Yes. The African Independence Freedom Movement would galvanize Black Americans here and really become like a North Star, if you will, for what Blacks could likely do here in the U.S. And so in addition to Diggs, there was Dr. King, his wife, Adam Clayton Powell, a number of important Black leaders attended that independence ceremony in Ghana. And I think the fact that they were drawn there was really a reflection of how they connected the independence freedom movement on the continent of Africa to what they were trying to accomplish in the US. Diggs’ trip to Africa, however, would really transform him on Capitol Hill and transform his policy focus. Diggs would attend this independence ceremony in 1957, and Peter, he would come back to America, to the U.S., and he would immediately ask the Democratic leadership in Congress to change his committee assignments so that he could become a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. And so in 1959, Diggs became the first Black man to serve on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And in his request to the leadership, his request to be on that committee, Diggs made it very clear that he thought as a Black American, he could see and do some things on Africa in particular that other members of Congress could not do. And so he felt a draw to Africa and he felt this draw so much that he went back and changed his committee assignment and became a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. And he would use his position on that committee to oversee—watch that word again—oversee what our country and our presidents were doing as it relates to U.S.-Africa policy. And then in 1969, ten years after being on the committee with seniority, Diggs became the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee’s Subcommittee on Africa. And he would use his position as chair of the Africa subcommittee to really launch the American anti-Apartheid movement from his congressional office. I think it's fair to say the American anti-Apartheid movement literally started in Congressman Diggs' congressional office. He was talking about Apartheid in the '50s and '60s when many Americans had no idea what Apartheid was. We tend to think of the movement, the anti-Apartheid movement as being the '80s and '90s, but Diggs was really talking about this and elevating this issue in the late '50s and early 1960s.

HORN: I remember [becoming aware of Apartheid] in the '80s, and of course it was just edifying to learn for the first time why that was, why people became aware of it. It was because of the work that he had done. I wanted to shift to a couple of other areas. We've mentioned a little bit about airports and airline travel, but I just thought with desegregation, it's another interesting story because whereas we were just talking about Apartheid that people might think American awareness is drawn to it later, we might have an idea of when the military got desegregated as just happening in one fell swoop with this executive order in 1948 that Truman signs it and then the troops are desegregated. Lo and behold! it is a much more complicated story than that, to see how long it took. That by 1955, which again is when Diggs is coming to office, there are still places where he can begin waging another long-term campaign of subtle and relentless pressure.

[27:25]

ORR: Yeah. Well, when Diggs arrived in office in January of 1955, he immediately, in fact, before he took the Oath of Office, he began to receive letters from Black military personnel about racial discrimination in the military. Of course, as you indicated, President Truman desegregated the troops in 1948, but racial discrimination really continued and Diggs would receive hundreds of letters from men and their family members about their treatment, not only on the base in terms of promotion and what have you, but also they would write Diggs about their treatment off base. And this would be one of the things that Diggs would zero in on, that is off-base discrimination and something he worked on really hard, which actually led President Kennedy to establish a national commission to look at racial discrimination in the US military. So Diggs would get these letters from men who could not find housing near the ben, for men who were military men who, once they finished their work, could not get a Coke or a hamburger in a nearby restaurant adjacent to the military installation. Black men, if they were having friendships with their white military colleagues and want to go have a beer or play bowling at a nearby establishment, could not do it. And so Diggs would work really hard to elevate the issue of off-base discrimination and the impact that discrimination had on troop morale. And so one of the things he worked on really hard was to get the Department of Defense to use its authority, its power to encourage local restaurants, amusement parks, and housing to allow black men and their families to participate in restaurants and these kinds of things. So Digs was able to literally desegregate many of the bowling alleys and private establishments within the vicinity of these military installations because of orders from the Department of Defense. The Department of Defense would put strict limits on apartment housings and housing and trailer parks near military installations and said if you would not allow Blacks to rent, no one could rent this housing. So he played a big role in breaking down what's called off-base discrimination. Diggs had served in the military during the Second World War, and he understood what this kind of discrimination, the impact this had on military morale, troop morale.

HORN: And it was something that required a good deal of finesse because Jim Crow, of course, was still perfectly legal in a lot of the places, I mean, according to the local laws where these military bases were. And so it required this maneuvering with the federal power through oversight to say, All right, well, if you want to do business this way, regardless of what your local customs and laws are, this is what the government says. But up until that pressure, the government had been perfectly willing to just go with whatever the localities said.

[31:43]

ORR: This is true. Diggs would say, for example, if the base commanders could rule houses of prostitution off limits for the troops, that they could do the same thing for businesses and apartment buildings that discriminated against Black folks. You could rule those businesses off limits. If you do not serve Black troops, we are going to rule your restaurant off limits for all troops. And this is what Diggs was able to do early on. But of course, by 1964, the Civil Rights Act would come online, but these things Diggs was trying to do prior to the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1968 Fair Housing Act. It was a kind of clever use of, if you will, the authority and the power and influence of the US military. And Diggs knew that they could use this kind of authority if they wanted to.

HORN: This is an archival question, but in the Congressman's papers, would there also be these letters that he had received from various constituents? Were those also preserved with his papers? So you read some of these as well?

ORR: Yes, yes. Oh, yes. There were lots of letters in his files. I remember one in particular where this guy was writing about discrimination in promotions on his base. And one of the things I recall, Peter, is he typed a letter, but at the end of the letter, he wrote, using his handwriting in big letters, DO NOT USE MY NAME—because this guy was afraid that if Diggs revealed that he was getting this letter and information from someone within the military that someone higher up would come back and maybe retaliate. So yes, the letters were there and they're very clear about the kind of treatment that Black military men and their families had to go through as members of the military. Again, a dozen years after Truman's 1948 executive order.

HORN: And just a quick aside, one of the examples I was really struck by, you told an example involving a man named Paul Reason, who was a third year Howard University engineering major. He had passed his exam to the Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps, the NROTC. Was that at U of R as well? Is that where he passed it?

ORR: No, he was at another school in New York, I believe. But because he was from DC, the DC regional office handled these admissions. So he had passed the exam at another university, I believe it was in New York, but because Paul Reason was from Washington DC, the decision makers were from the southern region of the country and they would not allow reason to become part of the Navy Academy. Diggs learned about this.

HORN: And this was a man who finished second out of 300 applicants.

ORR: That's right. That's right.

HORN: He was superbly qualified to do this.

ORR: Yes. And so Diggs learned about this and he went to Howard University and he wanted in particular to find someone like Paul Reason who he knew would be able to pass the exam to see what would happen. And so Paul Reason would in fact follow Diggs’ lead and reapply and take the exam again and he would pass and go on to become the first Black four-star admiral in the U.S. Navy.

HORN: That was 1996, as you write in the book. It's wonderful, because he attains that rank 16 years after Diggs is already out of Congress. Fortunately, Diggs is alive to see it. He doesn't die for another two years, but that's just a beautiful story.

ORR: The military story is really an example of his persistence. He really had to work to push the DOD and the presidents to do better by Black military men and families.

[36:50]

GREENE: Hello friends, it’s Dr. Greene again. If you’re a longtime listener to the show, you may recognize my voice from the conversation Pete and I recorded back in 2020, when we were all shaken by a tragedy in Minneapolis, the murder of George Floyd. I appreciated being a guest on this program, which gave me the opportunity to discuss some ideas about leading in that difficult time that were really important to me. If you’re listening to me right now, chances are that the ideas Dr. Orr is discussing feel important to you in this difficult time. If that’s true, think about what you can do to keep this show going. Sure, you can make a one-time or monthly contribution—I’ve done that myself, because I believe this content has real value for anyone curious about what and how and why we learn. But you can also help by rating or reviewing the show in your podcast app. It only takes a minute, costs no money, and helps other people find Point of Learning more easily. You can also share this episode about Congressman Diggs with someone you know who might appreciate the example of a legislator exercising Article I power. Whatever you do, thanks for your support. Now back to the show!

[38:29]

HORN: In order to make progress, we’ve got to be cautious sometimes. And so for example, one thing that stuck out to me was that there was a report, even though he was obviously very supportive of the work of the March on Washington in August of ‘63, in the springtime of that year, when it seems like this thing is really going to happen and [folks don’t know] how big could it be, Diggs wonders like, “Should we really do this?” Of course, I'm sure he was pleased with the way that it turned out, but he was not somebody who was just going to be a firebrand. He really thought about, We've got to be careful, what is the best way to do this? Another example brings me to that topic that I wanted to raise next, his founding of the Congressional Black Caucus, for which his first name was the Democratic Select Committee. He was like, Let's not maybe call attention, flag this. We don't want to have it be too divisive, but there is a benefit in kind of pooling our power and influence, but we don't want to be some kind of lightning rod. This is my word, not his.

ORR: Yeah, sure.

HORN: I wonder if you'd say a little bit about his work, because this was later on as he was a bit more established in Congress, how that Congressional Black Caucus, he came to feel like the moment was right and some early signs of the impact of that decision.

ORR: Yeah. I think this is something Diggs did that was in his mind for a while. I think when Diggs came into office in 1955 and he noticed and observed that Adam Clayton Powell, the Black militant, and Bill Dawson, the Black Conservative, the only two members of Congress who were Black Americans, did not talk to one another. Diggs, I think, instinctively knew that was not good, that these men were so polarized that they really did not get along and did not communicate. So I think Diggs sort of looked early on at the situation between Adam Clayton Powell and Bill Dawson and thought that that was not good for Black Americas, that at least our Congress members ought to be working together. So when Diggs saw the opportunity in the late '60s to bring together the Black members of Congress in the House, he took advantage of that. And in 1968, I think there were maybe six, seven members at the time, and then ‘69, you'll get more, he would begin to organize a group that he called the Democratic Select Committee. And at that point, the Black members of the House would need largely informally, for the most part, meeting on different issues. But then in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee became the Congressional Black Caucus. By that time, there were 13 Black members of the House, all of whom were Democrats. There were several of whom who worked very well together, for example, Shirley Chisholm, Bill Clay, and Louis Stokes, all of whom came in were elected in 1968, that they worked well together, they were friendly. And so Diggs saw this opportunity, not only in numbers, now only have 13, but also in the personalities, the way these members worked, that he could form a group. And hence, the Democratic Select Committee became the Congressional Black Caucus, and the members unanimously selected Charles Diggs to be the Congressional Black Caucus’ first chairman. And one of the first things that Diggs would do as the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus is to send a two-sentence letter to Richard Nixon, the President at the time, saying that the Congressional Black Caucus would like to meet with you to discuss issues from our district. And that one letter would lead to a high-profile struggle and battle between the new Congressional Black Caucus and President Nixon over this meeting. Eventually, Nixon would meet with the Caucus, but a year after Diggs sent that original letter. It became a big news story in Washington. This new group, the Congressional Black Caucus, is now formed, is pushing for an audience with the President. The President says no. Eventually he backs off and says, yes. They have a big meeting in the White House where the Caucus presents their concerns to the President and the Congressional Black Caucus leaves that meeting in March of 1972 as the most powerful, the most influential black political organization in the country at the time. The Congressional Black Caucus represented the new Black politics. They were a symbol, if you will, of the growth and strength of Black electoral politics. And the Caucus sort of helped for a few moments, at least, fill the void in Black leadership after the death of Dr. King and the assassination of Malcolm X. And Peter, today, the Congressional Black Caucus has some 62 members and is perhaps one of the most powerful influential caucuses in the U.S. Congress.

[44:47]

There is another Congressman who will be known to more listeners, unfortunately, than Congressman Diggs, at least before this podcast, before your book. We're going to change that! But it's Newt Gingrich. I could not believe—I was not surprised, but I could not believe that Newt played the role that he did. He also has some pretty damning quotations here because the end of Congressman Diggs' career was marred by the corruption and scandal related to financial mishandling. Basically, he struggled with finances and cooked the books in a certain way to pay for some things outside of his office. It's the kind of thing that we might look at today and say, "Well, that's a Tuesday before 7:00 AM in [the Trump] Administration." But it was a big deal and one of the people to call attention to it and really not let it go like a dog with a bone, because I think we should also remind people, this is a period of basically, I think the time that Diggs has been in office has been a Democratic lock on the House of Representatives, right?

ORR: Yeah. Yeah.

HORN: This whole time and somebody, a new freshman Congressman from Georgia is not pleased with this and can already dream about the days that Republicans will seize control with a nastier style of politics. This man is New Gingrich. And what was his role in the final days of Diggs time in Congress?

ORR: Yeah. Well, I have a chapter in the book called Diggs Meets Newt, Newt Gingrich. And what happened—

HORN: Newton Leroy Gingrich. Yeah, that's what I found out.

ORR: Newton Leroy Gingrich. Who knew?

HORN: I found out from you. I found it by reading you.

ORR: Yes. Diggs throughout his adult life had a difficult time managing his finances. And in 1978, October of 1978, Diggs was convicted on 29 counts in a payroll kickback scheme. Essentially, Diggs gave his secretary a salary increase, raising her salary, but the salary increase came back to Diggs. She gave the salary increase to Diggs so that Diggs could pay his personal bills, his mortgage, his insurance, and these kinds of things. And he was convicted in October of ‘78. Diggs, despite the conviction, was reelected the next month, in November of ‘78, and he was a very popular guy. People liked him. Diggs argued that he wasn't guilty, that he was appealing his conviction, and so he was reelected. And at the time, Peter, you could serve in Congress if you had been convicted of a crime but subsequently reelected by your constituents. And so although he was convicted in October ‘78, he was reelected in November of 1978 for the 12th time as a member of Congress. He goes back to Congress. He's been sentenced also at this time for three years in prison, but he's appealing, so he's out on appeal. He gets reelected in November of 7’8 and New Gingrich gets elected for the first time in November of 1978 as a newly elected member of Congress from Georgia. Before Newt Gingrich took the oath of office, he began to attack Congressman Diggs, who also gotten reelected.And essentially, Newt Gingrich targeted Diggs as an example of Democratic Party corruption. And he would organize Republicans, especially fresher members of Congress of the Republican Party to come to Congress and work to expel Diggs from Congress. And so Congressman Diggs has the distinction of being really the first Democratic target of New Gingrich. And Gingrich would work really hard to highlight Diggs' conviction, his reelection, and use it to hammer at the Democrats as being a party of corruption. Newt Gingrich saw in Diggs' saga an avenue whereby he could bring down the Democratic majority. Diggs became New Gingrich's first big target in Congress, and most people told Newt Gingrich that we handled these things for a particular kind of way, but Newt would not listen. And he would publicize and push. He would write op-ed pieces about Charles Diggs and would link Diggs to the Democratic Party. And eventually, because of Newt Gingrich, the House eventually censured Charles Diggs in July of 1979, and censure is, short of expulsion, the severest penalty that one could receive in the House. And as you probably know, and your listeners probably know, that Newt Gingrich’s first target was Charles Diggs, but he would go on to bring down Speaker Jim Wright of Texas some ten years later, eventually become Speaker of the House, and flip the House in 1994 for the first time since the 1950s.

HORN: But his line then that stuck out to me was that he was “morally repulsed” to serve in government with a convicted felon [House of Diggs, p. 241]. Oh the times! I've got one smaller question for you. It's just the coincidence aspect that it was really exciting for you as a high school student to run home and see Max Robinson on the TV. And of course, as you point out, as I learned from your book, it was his younger brother, Randall, who was a Harvard-trained attorney. He was an anti-Apartheid activist himself. That's probably how he hooked up with Diggs, I think, but then he was working as Diggs as chief of staff and this is never 100% certain, but it's just very likely that it was he who leaked some suspicious payroll reports to the Department of Justice, which was at that point trying to take the “Justice” part of its name pretty seriously. But I just wanted to ask for you, when did that occur to you? Or did you know it going in?

[52:39]

ORR: Peter, you're the first person to point out that coincidence! I was hoping other readers would connect us because I too found it fascinating that this would be the case. And it is the case that, and many of my colleagues will attest, that I really attribute a good part of my interest in high school of running home every day to watch Max Robinson read the news. I mean, I would leave the basketball court and I got to go see this Vlack man read the news. And so yes, it was really a shocking coincidence when I learned that Max Robinson's younger brother, who became Charles Diggs' chief of staff is the person that I identify in the book as the likely confidential informant who anonymously called the Justice Department and told them about the payroll kickback scheme that Diggs had been involved in. I say had been because it had stopped by that time, but the paper and the documents were still in his office. Randall Robinson went through those papers, discovered that Diggs had been involved in this, and he picked up the phone according to my research and called the Justice Department and reported what Diggs was doing, which would lead to Diggs’ indictment and subsequent conviction and resignation from Congress. It's a fascinating coincidence that Max Robinson and Randall Robinson played these roles in my book and research.

HORN: And I guess it's just at what point ... Did you know that going in before you embarked on the Diggs Project?

ORR: No.

HORN: Because as you say, this isn't definite, this is just very, very likely that this was the case, so it wasn't something that ... Yeah, right?

ORR: Yeah. Well, let me just say this. I had no idea. Let me just say, I'm very careful the way I frame it in the book.

HORN: Yes, that's what I wanted to acknowledge.

ORR: I'm very, very, very careful on how I frame it in the book, but this was something I had no idea. I'll tell you this, and you can play this for your listeners. When I was doing the research and interviewing people about Congressman Diggs, when I interviewed folk on Capitol Hill, they all said to me, "Professor, you must interview Randall Robinson," because he was Diggs’ chief of staff, he also was Diggs’ right hand who helped Diggs form the TransAfrica organization. TransAfrica, by the way, which became the leading anti-Apartheid organization in this country, was really Diggs’ vision. It was Diggs! It was Charles Diggs, who in the 1950s, Peter, thought of the idea that Blacks should have a lobbying organization focused on Africa. It was Diggs' idea of what would eventually become TransAfrica. And so everybody said, "You’ve got to talk to Randall Robinson," because he was Diggs’ chief of staff and he helped Diggs form this thing called TransAfrica. He would not talk to me. I couldn't figure out why he wouldn't talk to me.

HORN: Okay.

ORR: Okay. I did the footnote in the book. I have this footnote and I couldn't figure it out. He was dodging me, whatever. And then finally I got the FBI files and I was like, "Oh my goodness! This is why he's not talking to me." I'll tell you this, I finally got connected to Randall Robinson through email. A friend of mine was writing a book on TransAfrica and he connected the two of us. So I finally got in contact with him and we had email exchanges. Randall Robinson died in March 2023. So throughout this process, I'm trying to get ahold of him, finally got hold of him and I wanted him to respond. And so he says to me, "Send me your questions via email." Well, I said, "Well, I've never conducted an interview via email. I get on the phone." He said, "No, send me the questions." Anyway, to make a long story short, I sent—

HORN: He did go to law school!

ORR: I sent Mr. Robinson the questions and he didn't respond. And so I went several months, no response. Then I went back to him and here's what I said, and I said it very honestly, I said, "Mr. Robinson, I want you to know that your brother, Max Robinson, is really in part why I'm a professor today." And I explained to Mr. Robinson that when I was a boy, I would run home to watch his older brother on ABC News. Guess what? He responded.

HORN: How about that?

ORR: I couldn't believe it. He said, "I have the email. Thank you for your comments about my brother. Here's a statement. You can use this statement any way you want to in your book." And that was it. He would not grant me an interview. The statement is essentially what he says in his memoir about Diggs, that Diggs was a great guy, that he enjoyed working with Diggs, and Diggs was very important. That's it.

[58:57]

HORN: We're recording this on January 26th of 2026. I know that you are a political scientist and that Congressman Diggs is no longer with us, but having spent the time with him that you did learning about his career, what do you think he might do or say or feel about this moment with what is happening in Minneapolis, let alone the rest of the United States under the second Trump term? What could you see him trying to do in Congress if he were still active there?

ORR: Yeah. Well, Diggs would be very, very frustrated about the role that Congress is playing. He firmly believed in the legislature and his oversight role. And so Diggs would really be pushing his Republican colleagues to do what's right in terms of the legislature, in terms of its oversight. He would really be criticizing the speaker and the Republican majority for relinquishing its oversight authority over the administration, including the activities that are going on with ICE in Minneapolis and other cities. He really believed that Congress had this fundamental and important role as a legislature to provide this kind of oversight, number one. So he would be very critical of what Speaker Johnson and others are doing in terms of the separation of powers. The other thing that I think Diggs would be pushing for, he would be telling his Democratic colleagues, and especially the Congressional Black Caucus, that despite the fact that the Democrats are in a minority, that does not relinquish their authority either. And so I suspect that Diggs would be pushing the Democrats to be holding hearings around the country and hopefully publicizing those hearings about what this administration is doing around ICE and all these other matters that concern Americans. There's no reason why the Minority Party cannot go to Louisiana or go to Minneapolis and hold public hearings to bring to light what is happening in these communities. So I believe that's what Diggs would be pushing for. Diggs was a serious policy-oriented legislator who really functioned as a responsible member of Congress, who really believed in holding hearings, who really believed in, especially, Peter, the oversight authority that Congresses has as part of the Constitution. So he would be very, very disappointed at this hour about how the Republican majority has really thrown out of whack, if you will, the separation of powers by not holding the administration accountable. And he would be pushing his Democratic colleagues to be doing something. And I think what he’d be pushing for would be probably national and regional hearings around these various issues that all of us are talking about around the dining room table these days.

[01:02:50]

[VO]: That’s it for today’s show! My great thanks to Professor Marion Orr for taking the time to talk about his excellent biography of Congressman Diggs, which is especially important in this moment when Black history is under siege and Congress has abnegated its Constitutional oversight authority. A link to order the book appears on the show page for this episode. Thanks to Nanda Dyssou of the Coriolis Company for connecting me with Dr. Orr. Thanks as always to

Shayfer James, who graciously permits special instrumental versions of his music to be used as intro and outro. For spring tour dates, visit shayferjames.com. Special piano music for this episode was provided by the incomparable Gil Scott Chapman, who may be heard many summers as artist in residence in the Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island in Congressman Diggs’ home state of Michigan. And of course, thanks to you for listening, rating, and reviewing this episode. If you’d like to share it with your Congressperson as a gentle reminder of what is possible with relentless and strategic persistence, it’s not too soon to do so! Point of Learning is written, recorded, edited, mixed, and mastered by me here in sunny Buffalo, New York. I’m Peter Horn, and I’ll be back at you as soon as I can with another episode all about what and how and why we learn.

[01:04:26]

We lost another great African American political leader on February 17, when the Rev. Jesse Jackson died at age 84. Several of the tributes I read described him as the most significant Black American leader in the years between Dr. King and President Obama. Thanks to Marion’s book, I now know some of the ways Congressman Diggs and Rev. Jackson influenced each other. For example, the 1971 fundraising dinner for the Congressional Black Caucus attended by Jackson, among nearly 3000 others. CBC Chairman Diggs was the lead speaker, and he emphasized the “value of coalitions” to attack racial inequality, eradicate poverty, address drug addiction, and provide good jobs. He told the crowd that Black people must join with “white, rich and poor, from every segment of skill and concern in our society” to achieve their goals. (That’s on page 151 of The House of Diggs, if you’re following along at home.) For me, Jesse Jackson was like Max Robinson was for Dr. Orr, piquing my interest in civics and politics. One of my cherished childhood memories with my dad was screaming “Win, Jesse, win!” at the top of our lungs at a rally in Denver in 1988, all decked out in Rainbow Coalition swag. A few years earlier, watching his 1984 Democratic Convention keynote was the first time I had been captivated by a politician. Here are the last three minutes of that 1984 keynote address:

[01:06:05]

THE REV. JESSE L. JACKSON: I just want young America to do me one favor, just one favor. Exercise the right to dream. You must face reality, that which is. But then dream of a reality that ought to be, that must be. Live beyond the pain of reality with the dream of a bright tomorrow. Use hope and imagination as weapons of survival and progress. Use love to motivate you and obligate you to serve the human family. Young America, dream. Choose the human race over the nuclear race. Bury the weapons and don't burn the people. Dream—dream of a new value system. Teachers who teach for life and not just for a living; teach because they can't help it. Dream of lawyers more concerned about justice than a judgeship. Dream of doctors more concerned about public health than personal wealth. Dream of preachers and priests who will prophesy and not just profiteer. Preach and dream! Our time has come. Our time has come. Suffering breeds character. Character breeds faith, and in the end faith will not disappoint. Our time has come. Our faith, hope and dreams have prevailed. Our time has come. Weeping has endured for a night, but that joy cometh in the morning. Our time has come. No grave can hold our body down. Our time has come. No lie can live forever. Our time has come. We must leave the racial battle ground and come to the economic common ground and moral higher ground. America, our time has come. We come from disgrace to amazing grace. Our time has come. Give me your tired, give me your poor, your huddled masses who yearn to breathe free, and come November, there will be a change because our time has come. Thank you and God bless you.